MIRROR NEURONS

[beajie]

This is quite a complex subject, but I'm going to try to explain it simply. When I was watching BB and reading the GFBB forum, I noticed how far apart some perceptions were about what exactly was happening on the show. In particular some people just didn't 'get' Ais, and persisted with that stupid notion that she was fake, which had me shaking my head in disbelief at times.

As some of you know, I'm doing research at the moment on autistic spectrum conditions, and many neuroscientists are telling us that the study of autism, combined with the newest brain imageing, may help us answer the last unanswered question of psychology, 'How do people think?'

One of the hypothetical differences in the autisic brain is that those with autism have delayed Theory of Mind. By the age of 4, approx, most of us realise that other people have minds and feelings different from our own. Those with autistic spectrum conditions get to this stage very much later, and even when they get there the delay means that they have a limited understanding of the feelings and ideas of others - limited empathy.

Within the last year this hypothesis has been proven. Neuro-imageing has shown that in both the monkey and the human brain are mirror neurons. These, situated in the Broca's area of the brain, around the speech centre, mean that when we watch people performing a goal-oriented action, we unconsciously, inside our own minds, mirror that action. We get all the sensations that we would get if we ourselves did that action. In other words, human beings are hard-wired to be social, to learn from observing and unconsciously simulating what others do. We all have empathy built in to us, It's a tool for survival, and a short cut to learning. The mirror neurons are the precursors of speech, enabling us to comprehend gesture, and perform it. We add observed actions into our databank, and keep adding to it by observing more closely each time, and this enables us to predict outcomes of actions.

In autistic spectrum conditions the neural pathways from the mirror neurons are compromised, and along the line of this simulation, work much slower. In other words, those with autistic spectrum conditions haven't got the perfect toolbox for empathy, and may have to make up for this innate slowing, by trying to understand cognitively, by explanation, rather than understanding feelings and intentions intuitively. This in part explains the social/emotional difficulties present in autism.

But there are more implications that this. We know that girls, for instance, are more socially adept and this may be because we are socialised far more to consider others' feelings, which adds to our database constantly. It's a use it or reduce it issue. So currently parents are being advised to talk to their children much more about 'how would that feel?' 'what do you think she feels?' etc from the age of four onwards. This stimulates the entire process of emotional and social intelligence.

Another implication is that many more people than we think, perhaps as many as 10% of the population, may have reduced or delayed Theory of Mind, through neural defects. I certainly noticed on the boards that some people just didn't show empathy. Maybe they couldn't?

Another implication is in bullying. If you know what it feels like to be hurt, really know because your mirror neurons are telling you, how could you hurt anyone? You'd have to have a serious empathy defect to do that. Or, you just might be in the grip of something more powerful which wipes out your fellow feelings - perhaps fear. It's the most powerful emotion of all.

I thought this may help in some of the things we've been discussing.

Or maybe not?
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[Admin]

Interesting topic. I have no qualifications in this area so can not comment on the science, however, would the "Nurture or Nature" debate not come in here in some respects?

For example, if a person is subjected to examples of "non- empathy" during their childhood would they not display that behavior later in life as this is all they have known? Or if a person has grown up with "fear" as a major factor, would they not behave accordingly?

I think the brain is very complex and how we behave is also a complex set of both nature and nurture added to by the brains own functions.

every human is born with a set of hardwired instructions, which can be added to and modified by the experiences they have. A clinical psychologist explained it to me this way, It's like having a tape or CD playing in your brain, you have to do something that modifies the tape, not always easy as by a certain age most people are "set" in their thinking and do not see the need for change.

I'm sure I dont make sense here, Ill go away and think about this as it interests me.

[nobrains]

Odd that you mention parents asking 'how would you feel' questions, as a male dyslexic child with a dyslexic mother she would ask me these types of questions in our conversations.

Perhaps that is why I 'get' Aisleyne. As I grow older I seem to be growing more emotional or is it that I have become more aware of my emotions as I grow older!

My mother was known to terrorise the local council officers with her questions! Her questions would always have me gasping for breath trying to find a way to answer when the foundation of my assumptions had been neatly knock asunder.

[beajie]

admin said:

Interesting topic. I have no qualifications in this area so can not comment on the science, however, would the "Nurture or Nature" debate not come in here in some respects?

For example, if a person is subjected to examples of "non- empathy" during their childhood would they not display that behavior later in life as this is all they have known? Or if a person has grown up with "fear" as a major factor, would they not behave accordingly?

I think the brain is very complex and how we behave is also a complex set of both nature and nurture added to by the brains own functions.

every human is born with a set of hardwired instructions, which can be added to and modified by the experiences they have. A clinical psychologist explained it to me this way, It's like having a tape or CD playing in your brain, you have to do something that modifies the tape, not always easy as by a certain age most people are "set" in their thinking and do not see the need for change.

I'm sure I dont make sense here, Ill go away and think about this as it interests me.

Hiya DT!

There's no doubt that whatever the disability, nurturing and care matter. However, in a brain with a ToM dysfunction, a lot of the repairing mechanisms aren't there, so empathy has to be learnt by a lot of hard work on the part of both parent and child - and what if the parent has a dysfunctional Theory of Mind? The average person usually works on fourth order Theory of Mind, but many people on the autistic spectrum can't get to second order (what does X believe that Y intends?). The mother of four spectrum children who is central to my case study is 47, diagnosed with ADHD, warm, trained SRN, privately educated and articulate, told me two weeks ago that she's just suddenly realised that if she says or does something thoughtless, it might hurt someone else, and that other people have a real life, with real problems to contend with. Wow! It's actually blown her mind.

In seriously deprived children, like those in Romanian orphanages, autistic-like behaviours were observed. But their neural pathways weren't affected, so they've been able to come out of the damage, through love and care.

xx

[beajie]

nobrains said:

Odd that you mention parents asking 'how would you feel' questions, as a male dyslexic child with a dyslexic mother she would ask me these types of questions in our conversations.

Perhaps that is why I 'get' Aisleyne. As I grow older I seem to be growing more emotional or is it that I have become more aware of my emotions as I grow older!

My mother was known to terrorise the local council officers with her questions! Her questions would always have me gasping for breath trying to find a way to answer when the foundation of I disagreeumptions had been neatly knock asunder.

I love your writing! 'I disagreeumptions' is truly wonderful!

And yes, you are very emotional and empathic, so big hugs to your mum. She really did help make you into the wonderful caring person you are.

xx

[jane72]

There was a series on CH4 I think called ' what makes us human?' which explored mirror neurons and what they did, and their connection to Autism, a few weeks ago.

It was very interesting and now that they seem to have implemented 'mirror neuron' as a deficiency Im sure Autism research will take on a whole new direction, with hopefully more positive outcomes.

It would be interesting to see the extent of the mirror neuron deficiency affects people at the lower end of the spectrum. I am lead to beleive that even dyslexia is on the very lower end of the autistc spectrum as well as ADHD and other conditions that many people don't even realise they have.

If this is so, then maybe 'empathy', if directly related to this mirror neuron dificiency will be proportionate to the Autistic spectrum too?

I don't really know what I am talking about (obviously) but if Autism is growing in our society (which we are lead to beleive), it stands to reason that conditions that lay on the spectrum will also increase in proportion to it's position on it. ie, a much larger increase in conditions like ADHD for instance? And the lesser conditions even more so? Would that acount for 10% of the population?

Although, I know many dyslexic people and kids with ADHD who seem to have the greatest of empathy so there must be other influences that dictate this unless I have been lead to beleive wrongly and these aren't on the spectrum at all.

I'm probably way off the mark here, but I find this facinating.

[beajie]

I'm fighting to see ADHD accepted on the spectrum. There are still some 'experts' (ha ha ha) who think it's a made up excuse for bad parenting, even though ADHD has been shown in PET scans as being a defect in the neural pathways between the amygdala and the pre-frontal cortex. This defect is also present in autism and Asperger's Syndrome. It's a deficiency in Executive Function, which leads to failure to inhibit responses, shift attention, and make goal-directed moves efficiently. It may also be partially responsible for the inability to prioritise and edit for meaning (Central Coherence) although that's still under debate.

Also under debate is whether ADHD children have Theory of Mind or whether it's delayed.

Currently, because of the way the diagnostic criteria are laid out, ADHD is not reckoned to be o the spectrum, although the 'H' is so in yer face that it can sometimes mask a true diagnosis of Asperger's. Loads of kids are ADHD/Asperger, and everything on the spectrum is very much under-diagnosed, and will be for the next ten years until psychology and psychiatry catch up with neurology.

Dyslexia is also a frequent co-morbidity of ASCs, as are dyscalculia, and dyspraxia.

It's a big subject. But mirror neurons at least explain some of the complexities.

[jane72]

Ah, I see. I thought ADHD was already recognised on the AS. I have a nephew with ADHD and I know connections to ADHD and the AS have already been made, not via the health authorities I have to add though, via seminars, conferences, books etc.

It's hard to imagin, but there are even some doctors out there who still do not beleive in Autism, let alone ADHD. I worked with someone who had a severely autistic son, some of the horror stories about some 'so called' experts were horrifying.

As a scientist myself I find it almost imposible to understand how many doctors have closed their minds to the concept of ADHD as a disorder and purely blame the parents. Surely doctors are scientist? or at least have scientific minds, to me that means always having an open mind. Question the results by all means, that's what scientists do, but to close your mind to it, even with all the evidence and data that i'm sure you must have access to, to me is ludicrous.

Anyway, on the subject of 'empathy' I even saw a responce from someone saying it 'wasn't a trait that would be desirable' To me, my empathy is one of my most valued traits. I found that quite a hard statement to accept. That person must really struggle with day to day functioning it they actually though their empathy was somehow undesirable?

And yes, this was from one of the foul, hatred pouring, posters.

[Admin]

Talking of empathy or lack of it.

Even Aisleyne was percieved to have show a lack of empathy with Lea during their dissagrement.

But what do we actually mean as showing empathy?

[julian]

I think the main problem with a lot of Big Brother viewers is not so much a lack of empathy as a heavy does of cynicism, and possibly projection, coupled with a lot of cognitive dissonance.

They decide that nobody could be as nice as Aisleyne without an ulterior motive and that she, therefore, must be fake. Then they interpret all her actions in that light regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

Regards

Julian